“Be The Revolutionary Change That You Want To See In The Film Industry.” THE BETA TEST Interview With Co-writers/Directors/Stars PJ McCabe & Jim Cummings

In the new thriller/horror/comedy hybrid The Beta Test, writing and directing partners Jim Cummings and PJ McCabe, (which they also star in) create a compelling take on data-sharing, Hollywood, and ultimately, the temptations many of us fall victim to. I was able to speak with the duo about the start of their partnership, their process, and their combined joy for the love of film:

This interview has been edited for clarity. 

This is Kristy Strouse with Film Inquiry: Congrats on the movie! Really enjoyed it. How’s everyone doing?

Jim Cummings: Great! It was my birthday yesterday, and so it was fun.

Happy Birthday! I saw you in the new Halloween movie too! 

Jim Cummings: I got murdered on my birthday. [laughs]

That’s amazing. The Dream. [laughs] So, I know you two are longtime friends. Can you tell us a bit about how you met and how you started working together?

Jim Cummings: Heavy drinking – I think a lot of late nights. [laughs] PJ and I met 16 years ago, almost 17, at Emerson College in Boston. He was in the acting program, and I was in the film program. I would always steal him to act in our things. I was producing stuff back then, and sometimes directing and writing. And then I moved to LA, and we really started working together as like creatives in probably early 2014. Yeah. And we made 13 Cameras. That was pretty strong, PJ was a lead actor. I’m not an actor. And so a lot of our relationship started out with just us hanging out on sets and making stuff.

PJ McCabe: Yeah. And then, I don’t know, we just kind of were always like writing unofficially together. And then it just kind of evolved more into actually combining on screenplays and writing these stories together. Then it snowballed into this ridiculous partnership that we have now. And now we have 1000 things that we’re working on together. And it’s been a lot of fun!

Love that!

So, where did this wild idea for The Beta Test come from?

Jim Cummings: Oh man…. yeah, PJ and I had a conversation about getting a weird letter in the mail. And then it became about like, what would you do if he got this letter? And then PJ did all this research as to how you actually do it, how you’d connect people based on their public social media profiles, or search engine histories and stuff like that. And then it became about big data and lying and cheating. And then… only then did we realize we were making a movie about liars and cheaters.

And it was like, oh, you should be a talent agent! And then it became about the WGA fight with the agencies that was happening at the same time, and the kind of shifting landscapes of Hollywood and how things were collapsing and things were growing. It kind of all became one thing where we realized that the social media platforms were social networks. And then so were agencies in the beginning of their heydays. Now, that’s kind of falling apart because of the internet. It kind of all became one movie, and then we’re like, this can be really good! Let’s start writing it!

Awesome! Do you usually share the writing responsibilities pretty evenly?

Jim Cummings: Yeah, I mean, it’s all out loud. So like, we’ll have 1000 phone calls and like long walks and conversations about what the movie should be. And then PJ’s usually the one to take like 1000 notes and like do the research in a Google Doc. Then we get together once the story is done, like the entire idea of what the movie would be. And then we act out every scene and write it down.

And did you always intend to play those two characters when you were writing it?

PJ McCabe: Yeah, we, I mean, that was kind of the beginning of the project, it was going to be just like a small movie that he and I could act in, and just like, get our friends together to make something and then it ballooned and became a big film. It was supposed to be like a very easy, low-budget thing to shoot. That was easy for our producers –  like one location, and then…. well, we couldn’t help ourselves. And it became, the more we unearth about this whole letter service, and especially getting into the agency world we were like… No, this has to be a much bigger, more complex story. Then it became a much bigger project. That was a lot more fun. But I’m glad we can’t help ourselves and just have to write things that get more complicated. I think it’s more interesting that way.

Yeah, we’re glad you did that as well.

PJ McCabe: Okay, good. Good!

Since you are starring in these roles, is there a level of improv in the performance?

Jim Cummings: Not really on set. I mean, there’s a little bit of that in the writing process, because you kind of have to, like, you know, that’s the writing of it is us goofing around in the garage, trying to find the best way to get from A to B. And whatever is gonna make us laugh and be the best setup and pay off in a scene. I don’t know, I feel like we map it out pretty well outline-wise, kind of like we’re doing it but then like, once we get in there, there’s a bit of like discovering the best beats of a scene. Yeah, but very little.

I mean, the majority of it is kind of like in the DNA of the project, and then it’s just our job to execute that on the day. We have very little improv. There was one scene that we shot at the agency world where it’s like me and PJ going around, it’s like the whole office is in this long, take the zoom thing, and we shot for 11 minutes, it was all improv. And we use small snippets of it throughout the movie to show us doing big business office stuff. But, I’m not very good at improv. I get very nervous, and I’m not a trained actor. So, I don’t know what I’m doing. Everybody else is great. But we ended up not using a lot of that.

I feel like you must enjoy playing intense characters, Jim, ones on the verge of breaking down. [laughs] 

Jim Cummings: It’s funny to watch somebody flail!! And so yeah, that’s kind of been the foundation of my career, for sure, is like watching a big public freakout and somebody losing their mind, and they’re cool.

Do you think you’ll continue the trend with your next project?

Jim Cummings: It’s funny, now we’re like… the majority of this stuff that we’re doing now is much more like a Ghibli film. We’re doing very, well, we’re still doing like thrillers and horror films and ghost stories and stuff. But in comedy, it’s always comedy, but it’s very different. We’re not scheduled to act in any of the new stuff. It’s going to be for different actors, which will be freeing and also a little nerve-wracking.

PJ McCabe: Yeah, it’s, easy to write when it’s the two of us because we know how it’s gonna seem. So yeah, writing, you know, we’re writing this epic thing now that’s got a lot of very unique characters. It’s fun to do, but it’s definitely a bit more challenging. But yeah, we’ll pull it off. We’ll figure it out.

I’m sure you will. A welcomed challenge!

PJ McCabe: Yes. [laughs]

Speaking of genres – this is quite a mix! How do you balance that when writing?

Jim Cummings: Just out loud, I mean, like, really, we’ll write the script together, which is all out loud out using our vocal cords for every scene. And then we’ll record the script. It’s kind of like shooting draft as a podcast. And we’ll put in music and sound design in these areas that we think, help the story. So, we’ll already have acted it out 1000 times. There are moments when you’re recording the podcast, or in scripting, and you realize that this has taken too long, or that we could probably fuse these pieces of dialogue together. You can feel it when it’s done out loud. I’m glad that we’ve started to make movies that way, because most people only realize that the scenes suck when they show up on set, and it’s not working. It’s really great to have this pre-visualization for the film before we ever, organize a team.

That’s really interesting. So it’s almost like a table read… podcast?

Jim Cummings: Yes, and it is super helpful! It really is, because you can feel when it’s slow and it’s not working. And you’re like, alright, we have got to go back to the drawing board and figure out why this just isn’t flowing correctly. Where does the audience need to be? Why is this not funny enough? Is this a bad time to try to be funny? Yeah, it helps a lot.

I think that’s wonderful, and our readers will find that interesting and helpful. When you are wearing so many hats, writer/director/actor – even editor, Jim, do you have a preferred/favorite?

Jim Cummings: Yeah… Yeah. It’s certainly not being an editor. [laughs] I’ll tell you that spending 16 months in this room, editing the film and doing the sound design is not the most fun.

PJ McCabe: Sad Steven Soderbergh over here. [laughs]

Jim Cummings: There’s a good quote that says that writing is like giving birth, shooting is like living, and editing is like murder. I think that’s true. [laughs] But no, I like all of them at once. For the last couple of years I’ve been writing, acting and directing. And when you’re on set, it feels like the most alive you could ever be is like, being in the moment and finally, having this dream come true and capturing the footage that you know is going to be good with a team of people that you really love. I think just like being a filmmaker is probably the best hat that I love to wear.

PJ McCabe: Yeah, I mean, acting and writing are obviously what I excel at the most, but honestly what I like to be doing start to finish is writing. And like watching Jim through all the post-production. I mean, just getting an appreciation for all the little things that go into it. Making a movie is crazy, how much goes into it. The sound mixing and all the little logistics of putting the final touches, and all the details. The special effects and everything. It’s really hard! And it’s just it makes you appreciate everything that all the little jobs are that have to get it done. It’s crazy.

Yeah, and you guys are really do-it-yourself filmmakers too, for sure. Which is inspiring. Is there any last advice you’d give? 

Jim Cummings: Anybody can do it! There’s no magic to it. It’s hard work and running crowdfunding campaigns and using Facebook groups to find other filmmakers in your area. It’s about building a community around dope cinema and the stuff that you love and team building and… be the revolutionary change that you want to see in the film industry where there are no jerks on a film set. You can create that in Des Moines, Iowa, you can create that ANYWHERE, wherever you are making movies. And I think everybody should! They’d be much more fulfilled than just spending years talking about making movies.

PJ McCabe: Yeah! And top of that, don’t be afraid to wear different hats. I mean, for years, I was just waiting around for people to put me in movies or writing stuff that was never gonna see the light of day. I mean, don’t be afraid to go write yourself in something and go shoot it from an acting and writing standpoint. Then, suddenly, you’ll learn how to do everything else, which I’ve done as well. It’s super helpful to just get your hands dirty and start doing it.

Wonderful advice! Thank you so much for talking to me today. 

PJ McCabe & Jim Cummings: Thank you! Our pleasure.

Film Inquiry would like to thank PJ McCabe and Jim Cummings for taking the time to speak with us.