Melbourne International Film Festival 2020: Interview with Bill & Turner Ross, Directors of BLOODY NOSE, EMPTY POCKETS

As Buck Owen’s ‘Big In Vegas’ gently guides audiences from the shabby streets of Las Vegas into the smoky, neon-lit interior of The Roaring ’20s, a dive bar on the eve of closure, you’re instantly aware that Bill & Turner Ross’ Bloody Nose, Empty Pockets is going to be something special. What follows is a melancholic, sometimes hilarious, sometimes tragically touching ethnographic social mosaic of the diverse but marginalised body of America’s working-class residents, represented in the patrons who congregate together to celebrate The Roaring 20’s final night; except the whole thing is a facade, the bar, and its fate are merely a fabrication that allows a cavalcade of actors and non-actors to let loose over one anarchic 18-hour period, blurring the delicate line between fiction and documentary.

As more characters enter the bar, including an Aussie on acid and a wistful Vietnam veteran, their free-flowing conversations recreate the affable, whimsical atmosphere of spending the night in a bar surrounded by strangers – an act we’ve learned we took for granted as our communal spaces are stripped away from us throughout this year. Hilarious and heartfelt, the looming sense of imminent loss speaks to the poetic (but unforeseen) name of the bar itself: The Roaring ’20s, which could speak to a time we’ve lost, or an ironic nickname for the 20’s we’ve just entered. Either way, in the face of certain doom, all we have is each other – Bloody Nose, Empty Pockets is another solemn reminder that in the darkest times, solidarity is the key to continuing.

As one of the films programmed at Melbourne International Film Festival 68½, I had the chance to talk with Bill and Turner Ross about the casting of Bloody Nose, Empty Pockets, the influence of the 1970’s American cinema, how people have reacted to the movie and their definitive bar films.

Alex Lines: I want to talk first about casting the film – first off, in terms of scouting, can you describe that process?

Turner Ross: Yeah. There were a couple of folks that we knew around town that we thought, if we’re going to make a bar film, there’s no way we can make it without them. And I’d say that was probably a third of the folks. Maybe not many, but it was really a lot of bar casting. We would just go set-up shop for a few hours all around town and we would just talk to folks.

Bill Ross: We interviewed hundreds of people.

Turner Ross: Yeah, but in our mind though we had these archetypes in mind of who should be in those bar stools. And so we sort of knew who we were looking for without knowing who we were looking-

Bill Ross: There were like a dozen primary archetypes that we knew we could create sort of a dynamic space with those people in place. And then we also knew that there needed to be compatriots. So like Lowell, well Lowell can be in there. He needs to have Pam in there because those two are a tag team or a duo, and then what fits well with those people. And if this person’s behind the bar, well who’s at the end of the bar? Who’s in there at 11 a.m.? Who comes in the evening? Just really trying to give a kinetic language to the space.

Alex Lines: Yeah, that sort of pinball mechanic, I guess.

Bill Ross: Yeah, exactly.

Alex Lines: So when you’re doing that, how do you pitch the film to those people? Because I imagine there’d be a number of people that you’d see and think like, “Oh, you’re perfect,” but they’d probably be quite reluctant to put themselves out there, whether it be through a performance or not.

Turner Ross: Did we have anybody say that they weren’t comfortable with it?

Bill Ross: Well, that starts at the beginning. You know, especially when we’re casting people that we don’t already know, it’s a scenario where first they would have had to have come and spoken to us sort of in their natural words-

Turner Ross: Yeah, that’s true.

Bill Ross: So that’s phase one. And then, if that goes well, if they’re compelling, if we have a good rapport with them, then we can go in later and have a discussion about what it is we’re actually doing. And so there’s a second layer. And then, we’ve really built this with these people and we spent individual time with each of them. And got them acquainted with the space and did some preliminary shooting and made sure that everybody that was involved was absolutely complicit because… And that was a big thing that we told to each and every one of them is you’re here for a reason.

You know, we love you for who you are and you are unique within this space. So you really are a pillar within this space and this space is whatever you want it to be. And what you present is whatever you want to present. That this movie doesn’t work unless you want to be a part of it. We can’t do this altogether unless each of us really wants to do this together. None of us know exactly where it’s going to go, but we have an idea of what we’re doing and what we’re after, and we’re just going to see what happens.

Alex Lines: When you started shooting, was there ever a time where someone either froze up once you put the camera on them or the opposite, where you felt like they were trying too hard to put on a performance for you?

Bill Ross: Yeah, totally. I don’t think anybody ever froze up. Once it started, it was as if you were in an actual bar. There was some performative stuff, but as we’ve learned – this is our fifth feature – when somebody starts doing that, you just focus your attention elsewhere. They pretty quickly realized that if you’re pointing your camera somewhere else, that what they’re doing is not what we’re after.

Turner Ross: At a certain point where they started-

Bill Ross: Feeding off of each other as well. And it really, they created their own narrative within the construction that we created and in response to the stimuli that we provided.

Alex Lines: I believe Nick Pinkerton touched upon this with his interview with you too, but the title implies – not explicitly – a looming threat of violence. Obviously when you’re shooting these long exhaustive days, facilitated by alcohol, was there ever a time where you felt things might do or got genuinely out of hand?

Turner Ross: No, not in a- not out of hand. You see it in the film toward the end, there was almost a fight. It’s not something that we were trying to provoke, don’t tune in for blood and crime. It’s more of the idea of being sort of put through the ringer and not having much to show for it. I think a lot of these people, and especially what they chose to portray within this scenario, are folks who have wrestled with life and are seeking some shared solace in this space.

Sometimes that comes out as love and exuberance and sometimes that comes out as backbiting and argument and blame. That’s what we were interested in, especially as a social commentary at that time was just, what are we saying to each other when we’re not talking about the overt things that are usually the headlines, apart of our conversations.

Alex Lines: Can either of you recall the first conversation or interaction that you witnessed that made you feel like, “Oh, this is actually working?”

Bill Ross: Well, I’ll tell you how I felt for the first 10 minutes, that’s a great question because right off the top of my head, I don’t know the answer to it. I mean, I had a genuine fear that it wasn’t going to work at all. So for the first few minutes, once the “bar opened”, I was just curious how this was going to play out, but very quickly, as we’d cast these folks because they’re familiar with that lifestyle and they’re not acting, they were playing a version of themselves.

Turner Ross: Once those first few regulars started filtering in, when it was just Michael in there, it could have the potential to be a stilted theatrical experience. But what happened when John came in and then Lowell came in, and Ira was there, is that they all started to disarm each other and they all started to have propriety of place. They all sort of claimed their own spaces and started to build their own mini-narratives.

And so by the time the afternoon rolls and the bigger and younger crowd comes in, these people really are within that world, regulars. They have ownership and authorship of the stories and of the space and there’s a continuum to all of it. And once that started to occur, really the whole movie-making thing seemed to become the backdrop and the experience just started to take over for them.

Alex Lines: Just from the opening font and soundtrack choice, I imagine a version of this film being made in the ’70s with Harry Dean Stanton or Bruce Dern walking through The Roaring ’20s.

Bill Ross: Boy, I’d love to watch that movie.

Alex Lines: Speaking to that, in your previous film Western, it had the visual cues and tropes from old Hollywood westerns, remixed and modernised within the context of that film, did you feel that you were doing the same thing in Bloody Nose in regards to cinematography and general approach?

Bill Ross: Yeah, I mean, they were our references for this one, those sort of handmade, gritty ’60s, ’70s films. Right now we’re in our office, I’m looking at a record for Dusty and Sweets McGee and a poster for Husbands.

Alex Lines: Terrific film.

Bill Ross: And those are big references for us, as those films feel very lived in and they’re very imperfect and that’s what gives them their heart. Those films were very much inspiring us-

Turner Ross: And we wanted to pay homage to those things and be very upfront about what we’re thinking about and what has inspired us. But also when we analyze those films, spent on talking about them, we often talk about, “yeah, what is it that draws us in and what is it that allows us to stay within it?” And it’s something about the texture and they’re handmade, and like Bill said, very lived in. They seem kinetic and alive. And so, how can we best get to that? And it was by creating something that could go wrong at any second by giving it a texture and feel. Just all of those choices played into it for sure.

Alex Lines: With the film being on the festival circuit throughout this year, what have been some of the more surprising or unexpected reactions you’ve noticed as more audiences have had a chance to see the film?

Bill Ross: That people from all walks of life, love it. This was a very hard film to make and to edit specifically. I had real doubts that any festival would program it and that it would gain any traction. But once people got to see it early in the year before things got shut down. We had folks from 18 to f*cking 90 telling us stories about being in a bar you know? It was pretty wild to see people really react to it and sometimes very emotionally too.

Alex Lines: Do either of you have a definitive bar film, or in a broader sense, a drinking film? Some that come to mind for me would either be Barfly or Under the Volcano.

Bill Ross: Oh, Under the Volcano, I love that movie, man. Choosing one though – That’s tough.

Turner Ross: There are pieces of a great many.

Bill Ross: Yeah. I mean, Stranded in Canton is always a reference for, I think, everything we make. The Exiles is really a film that affects us. I don’t know, T what would you say? I love Barfly obviously.

Turner Ross: Yeah, Barfly’s a big one, but then that’s also based on Bukowski and a lot of talking about this, were scenes, from novels, from all of time. These spaces and these situations have resonated with people and it was a deep well to be inspired by. Also, we should mention a reference that we didn’t even see until after the fact, Eagle Pennell’s Last Night at the Alamo.

Bill Ross: Oh yeah, Alex, have you ever seen this film?

Alex Lines: No, but I have heard of it.

Bill Ross: Yeah so we were telling somebody that we were making this movie, we were shooting it. We were looking for money and we told this dude about it and he’s like, “Oh, well, I- ”

Turner Ross: Did he produce it? Like in the ’70s or something.

Bill Ross: He helped get it made, but he was like, “well, you got to see this Eagle Pennell film.” So we watched it and it’s incredible. It’s incredible.

Alex Lines: There’s another one that springs to mind, even though it’s not a drinking film, but the atmosphere is akin to something like They Shoot Horses, Don’t They?

Turner Ross: Oh, yeah. Great film.

Bill Ross: Oh, another film I saw after the fact, this was just a couple of months ago actually. The restaurant scene from Playtime.

Turner Ross: Oh, wow.

Bill Ross: I wish we had seen that ahead of time. That might’ve helped. I don’t know, just spatially the way that sequence is put together. It’s just incredible.

Alex Lines: I mean, that whole film is insane, when you think about it logistically.

Turner Ross: Oh my God.

Bill Ross: It’s unbelievable.

Alex Lines: Touching on the film’s ending, I was considerably touched by the different pairings that end up leaving the bar, whether by giving another a lift home or visiting a diner together. I believe you shot a whole additional section around Vegas following the characters post-bar, can you extrapolate on what that footage entailed?

Bill Ross: A big part of the way that we made the film happen, was by filming it in linear sections. So the first thing could inform the next and at the end of the primary shoot, this 18 hour night shoot that we did, that is the bulk of the film. We really paid attention to everyone’s exits and everyone’s departures whether they ran to the store, or went off in the alley or whatever it might be.

And spent some time with that after the bar shoot, and then took those narratives out into the world, out into the streets of Vegas. And treated them much the same, like really built worlds around them. Where are these people are coming from? Where are they going to? How they’re getting there?

And we spent a couple of weeks with a few different groups of people from the bar out there and just letting these narratives unfurl. They’re just really little reference points, little things within the film, because we realized, and we were helped to realize, that the real story was within those four walls, but we filmed those entire narratives, the comings, and goings and where they ended up. It was insane and it was beautiful, but really what we needed was just those little icebergs, just those little glimpses that there is life out there.

Film Inquiry thanks Bill and Turner Ross for taking the time to talk with us.

Bloody Nose, Empty Pockets played as part of the Melbourne International Film Festival 2020, and is currently streaming at the Jacob Burns Film Center, details can be found here.